What's the future of Echinacea?

[Paul Westervelt]

Where are we on the Echinacea bubble? Are new cultivars getting better or just more numerous? Are home gardeners successfully growing any of the hot colors and if not, how long will they keep trying? I've traveled a fair amount this year and spoken with a lot of growers and we all seem to be struggling with Echinacea to some degree. So, what's the future of Echinacea?

[Paul Westervelt]

With 27 views and no replies, it looks like the rest of you are as uncertain as I am :)

 

A follow up question - to hopefully spark some discussion - is new breeding continuing to improve the genus and if so, how? I've seen some great new varieties in trial gardens, but I've also seen junky new varieties right next to them. Are we refining or just throwing new cultivars aginst the wall? Lastly, if we are refining, what cultivars are you excited about?

[Wendy Becker]

As a grower, we have definitely seen some of the "junky" varieties you speak of!! There are some classic varieties that sell well each year like Magnus and White Swan and we have good luck with the PowWow series and now the Sombrero series. We have found Green Jewel and Hot Papaya always look good in a pot. Which is an important concern of growers and retailers---how it looks in the container! I think Echinacea will always be popular due to its long bloom period and easy-to-grow status....

[Paul Westervelt]

Thanks for weighing in, Wendy! I'm glad to hear you've done well with the Sombreros. I've heard good things about those from several growers and saw some great ones in trials this summer (especially Salsa). That said, the last trials I visited (Rakers wk37) showed Sombreros had some susceptibility to the leaf bronzing that we think is ozone damage. It's the first time I've seen it on that series, but we've struggled with it mightily on other cultivars so I'm a little hesitant now.

Have you tried anything with E. tennesseensis in the parentage? I've found those to be particularly solid landscape performers.

[Wendy Becker]

No we have not tried any but will definitely look into! Thanks!

[Paul Westervelt]

We've been happy with Pixie Meadowbrite for several years. It's super short and from the CBG breeding program (but not at all like Orange and Mango Meadowbrite). Rocky Top is my favorite at home, but I didn't grow it well in the nursery. And a new one called Southern Belle was great for us this spring.

[Wendy Becker]

We've added Southern Belle to our mix for 2013, I'm looking forward to seeing how well it does for us! I'm going to look up Pixie Meadowbrite! Thanks so much!!

[Andy Bittner]

Hardiness!  I want it! I need it! ps.  I have experianced leaf bronzing due to broad mite in echinacea.

Seed vareties seem to be the way to go, especially with the patentent police on the rise. What happens when your precious genetics go down the crapper all powerful breeders?....thats what I thought. I've wasted my last dollor on trends in echinacea

[[e-mail]]

This is an old email that Angela had sent out that I found very informative and saved. So many details of how to be more successful with Echinaceas and what our customers really do not know either.
Hope this answers many of your questions too!! I just copied her entire email as written.

"Angela Treadwell-Palmer" View contact detailsTo: mWelcome to The Weeding Gnome
Brought to you by Plants Nouveau

In today's Issue:

In Defense of Coneflowers

--- The Garden Note for September 30, 2011 ---

I really wanted to write about respecting big trees this time, especially after the tree devastation I’ve seen with all the rivers of rain we’ve been forced to swallow lately, but I feel the need to explain coneflower hardiness once more.

With that in mind, I bring you a revised rant from yesteryear that will give you more information than you ever thought possible about why coneflowers truly are hardy and why their demise is usually due to garden or gardener error.

I’ve been called the coneflower queen. My career led me right into the mouth of this Echinacea volcano. As much fun as this has been, I’m really tired of hearing the same comment over and over. Folks are saying the new coneflowers are not winter hardy.

Bollocks!

For that reason and because I am so sick and tired of someone commenting on how they are not hardy each and every (no exaggeration here) time I post a picture on our Facebook Fanpage – I’m defending the coneflowers.

Does anyone read botanical literature anymore?

No offense, but most of the folks talking smack on the Internet are not trained horticulturists. I surf Dave’s Garden and The Garden Web Forum (and others) just to see what’s being said. I also try and educate people about the real reason their precious, $25 coneflower died last winter.

Echinacea purpurea (purple coneflower), the traditional pink or white petaled coneflower, native to the eastern half of North America is hardy from the deep southern tip of Florida and Texas to the most northern tip of Ontario, Canada. If that’ the case – how is it that this plant could have hardiness issues?

Once established, they can survive many horrific winters. Their taproot stores food and helps the plant to over winter. I don’t advise planting a young Echinacea purpurea much beyond July. That way, the plant has time to let its taproot grow deep.

This is just one of those plants that needs to be sold in the Summer – before or when it’s in bloom, not after. Sorry garden centers, but it’s true.

Echinacea paradoxa (Bush’s purple coneflower), on the other hand, has droopy, yellow petals–hence the paradox–a fibrous root system and is native to Mid Western prairies where soil is rich and well drained and the winters are pretty dang cold. E. paradoxa is hardy from zones 5-8. Having a fibrous root system means this plant spends the first year making roots. It shouldn’t bloom the first year, but it often does – especially in nursery soils where it gets much more fertilizer than it would in the wild.

Note to nursery growers reading this: please cut off the first blooms all the way down to the crown, especially of E. paradoxa and hybrid selections. I know it’s hard and you so desperately want to sell them as soon as you can because they are so hot right now, but if you sell this plant with it’s one or two blooms and tiny little crown – it’ll surely die the first winter. Even worse – if you try and over winter this same plant in a hoop house, chances are – unless you keep it completely dry – it’ll die too and then you’ll be calling us because they are not hardy for you. It’s all about winter wetness folks – and if there are no roots to absorb the moisture – the plant rots. It’s that easy!

Combine E. purpurea and E. paradoxa and– voilá– you get the lovely shades of orange and red we’ve been seeing the past few years. Dr. Jim Ault of The Chicago Botanic Garden was the first to introduce a single orange, and then came the Saul Brothers of ItSaul Plants in Georgia. These were horticultural breakthroughs. Arie Blom of AB-Cutivars in the Netherlands and Terra Nova Nurseries soon followed with the first double pink and orange blooms.

These breeders have changed the way the World sees coneflowers. They have also interrupted the notion that coneflowers are really hardy and last forever.

Most coneflowers don’t last forever. I’ve seen E. tennesseensis last more than 8 years, but rarely do other species. It’s just the nature of the beast.

What people don’t realize is coneflowers are quite promiscuous. They seed all over.

Often, the there are so many seedlings popping up everywhere that gardeners don’t realize the original plant is gone. Once you plant one of these special, new orange selections, you get a reality check that coneflowers don’t always live forever. Often, the original plant, no matter what selection, will slowly decline after being in the garden for 7or so years, then one day, it will be gone.

You’ll often get the seedlings you did with straight E. purpurea, but they won’t be orange – they’ll be pink or white and then you’ll know when you’ve lost the original plant. That’s when the complaints come in about them not being hardy. Or people call saying they have a new plant because their orange coneflower mutated to light pink!

Those folks don’t like my answer…

There’s nothing non-hardy about these hybrids if they are planted in well drained soil and allowed to establish. Clay soil can be death. Planting too late can also be a problem. Too much mulch is bad. And please - remember to remove your leaf litter in the fall. Don’t take it all away, but keep any piles away from the crown.

My famous gardening friend in South Carolina, Jim Martin says, “Echinacea, oh- you mean those annuals?”

And then he lets out this seriously haunting laugh. For him, they are annual, but he loves them none-the-less. To date, only ‘Tiki Torch’ has come back repeatedly for Jim. Not sure what Tiki Torch has that the others don’t. That would be a great DNA project. Isolate that gene and make all coneflowers hardy in the deep south. If you can do that, let’s talk.

In coastal S.C., it’s obviously not about winter hardiness – it’s about lack of winter and poor soil or lack of soil when you reach the true coast.

Just like I stated above for the nursery growers, winter wetness and poor drainage can just as easily kill a plant in the garden – especially orange ones. With the addition of the E. paradoxa gene – the plants are a bit more susceptible to winter rot. OK – here’s the recipe for success with these fantastic, new hybrids…

If you’re a gardener:

- Plant ‘em early
- Plants ‘em high if you have poor drainage
- Don’t be afraid to tip the pot in the nursery and look for roots.

Your coneflowers and your wallet will thank you.

If you’re a grower:

- Cut off the first blooms of a new crop so they can make more crown and roots
- If you are going to deadhead the fall flowers, cut them all the way off. Don’t leave the old stems because they act like straws – drawing moisture down and into the crown every time they are watered or it rains.
- Make sure you keep all coneflowers dry in winter months

Your coneflowers, your budget and your suppliers will thank you.

You can be successful, as a grower and as a gardener, with all of these new, very coveted selections if you follow these simple rules. And when you hear a friend or customer say, “Those new coneflowers are not winter hardy”, please respond with, “Oh, contraire, but they are. Let me tell you what I’ve learned.”

I would greatly appreciate a little help spreading the word.

[Karl Ruser]

We feel that many cultivars of natives ultimately fail due to the reseeding issue described here. What is troublesome is this ignores the reason for using natives in the first place; which is to enjoy their great landscape qualities while helping to preserve indigenous species and their gene pools as much as is possible. By breeding them and using distinct cultivars all over we restrict the gene pool being used in the landscape. Lack of genetic diversity in landscapes contributes to many of the pest and hardiness problems we have.

And, as was pointed out, when new plants eventually sprout from self seeding, the genes that made the hybrid so spectacular re-sort out and the offspring end up looking more like the wild type. The unintended consequences of this is that it risks introducing non-local gene pools into new regions without being able to recognize it is happening. If the hybrid is going to decline eventually, why not just stick with the natives in the first place? As the OP asked, are the hybrids really better or just more numerous? The true natives have a lot to offer. Let's not forget them in the rush for the newest name and "hottest" color.

[e-mail] said:

This is an old email that Angela had sent out that I found very informative and saved. So many details of how to be more successful with Echinaceas and what our customers really do not know either.
Hope this answers many of your questions too!! I just copied her entire email as written.

"Angela Treadwell-Palmer" View contact detailsTo: mWelcome to The Weeding Gnome
Brought to you by Plants Nouveau

In today's Issue:

In Defense of Coneflowers

--- The Garden Note for September 30, 2011 ---

I really wanted to write about respecting big trees this time, especially after the tree devastation I’ve seen with all the rivers of rain we’ve been forced to swallow lately, but I feel the need to explain coneflower hardiness once more.

With that in mind, I bring you a revised rant from yesteryear that will give you more information than you ever thought possible about why coneflowers truly are hardy and why their demise is usually due to garden or gardener error.

I’ve been called the coneflower queen. My career led me right into the mouth of this Echinacea volcano. As much fun as this has been, I’m really tired of hearing the same comment over and over. Folks are saying the new coneflowers are not winter hardy.

Bollocks!

For that reason and because I am so sick and tired of someone commenting on how they are not hardy each and every (no exaggeration here) time I post a picture on our Facebook Fanpage – I’m defending the coneflowers.

Does anyone read botanical literature anymore?

No offense, but most of the folks talking smack on the Internet are not trained horticulturists. I surf Dave’s Garden and The Garden Web Forum (and others) just to see what’s being said. I also try and educate people about the real reason their precious, $25 coneflower died last winter.

Echinacea purpurea (purple coneflower), the traditional pink or white petaled coneflower, native to the eastern half of North America is hardy from the deep southern tip of Florida and Texas to the most northern tip of Ontario, Canada. If that’ the case – how is it that this plant could have hardiness issues?

Once established, they can survive many horrific winters. Their taproot stores food and helps the plant to over winter. I don’t advise planting a young Echinacea purpurea much beyond July. That way, the plant has time to let its taproot grow deep.

This is just one of those plants that needs to be sold in the Summer – before or when it’s in bloom, not after. Sorry garden centers, but it’s true.

Echinacea paradoxa (Bush’s purple coneflower), on the other hand, has droopy, yellow petals–hence the paradox–a fibrous root system and is native to Mid Western prairies where soil is rich and well drained and the winters are pretty dang cold. E. paradoxa is hardy from zones 5-8. Having a fibrous root system means this plant spends the first year making roots. It shouldn’t bloom the first year, but it often does – especially in nursery soils where it gets much more fertilizer than it would in the wild.

Note to nursery growers reading this: please cut off the first blooms all the way down to the crown, especially of E. paradoxa and hybrid selections. I know it’s hard and you so desperately want to sell them as soon as you can because they are so hot right now, but if you sell this plant with it’s one or two blooms and tiny little crown – it’ll surely die the first winter. Even worse – if you try and over winter this same plant in a hoop house, chances are – unless you keep it completely dry – it’ll die too and then you’ll be calling us because they are not hardy for you. It’s all about winter wetness folks – and if there are no roots to absorb the moisture – the plant rots. It’s that easy!

Combine E. purpurea and E. paradoxa and– voilá– you get the lovely shades of orange and red we’ve been seeing the past few years. Dr. Jim Ault of The Chicago Botanic Garden was the first to introduce a single orange, and then came the Saul Brothers of ItSaul Plants in Georgia. These were horticultural breakthroughs. Arie Blom of AB-Cutivars in the Netherlands and Terra Nova Nurseries soon followed with the first double pink and orange blooms.

These breeders have changed the way the World sees coneflowers. They have also interrupted the notion that coneflowers are really hardy and last forever.

Most coneflowers don’t last forever. I’ve seen E. tennesseensis last more than 8 years, but rarely do other species. It’s just the nature of the beast.

What people don’t realize is coneflowers are quite promiscuous. They seed all over.

Often, the there are so many seedlings popping up everywhere that gardeners don’t realize the original plant is gone. Once you plant one of these special, new orange selections, you get a reality check that coneflowers don’t always live forever. Often, the original plant, no matter what selection, will slowly decline after being in the garden for 7or so years, then one day, it will be gone.

You’ll often get the seedlings you did with straight E. purpurea, but they won’t be orange – they’ll be pink or white and then you’ll know when you’ve lost the original plant. That’s when the complaints come in about them not being hardy. Or people call saying they have a new plant because their orange coneflower mutated to light pink!

Those folks don’t like my answer…

There’s nothing non-hardy about these hybrids if they are planted in well drained soil and allowed to establish. Clay soil can be death. Planting too late can also be a problem. Too much mulch is bad. And please - remember to remove your leaf litter in the fall. Don’t take it all away, but keep any piles away from the crown.

My famous gardening friend in South Carolina, Jim Martin says, “Echinacea, oh- you mean those annuals?”

And then he lets out this seriously haunting laugh. For him, they are annual, but he loves them none-the-less. To date, only ‘Tiki Torch’ has come back repeatedly for Jim. Not sure what Tiki Torch has that the others don’t. That would be a great DNA project. Isolate that gene and make all coneflowers hardy in the deep south. If you can do that, let’s talk.

In coastal S.C., it’s obviously not about winter hardiness – it’s about lack of winter and poor soil or lack of soil when you reach the true coast.

Just like I stated above for the nursery growers, winter wetness and poor drainage can just as easily kill a plant in the garden – especially orange ones. With the addition of the E. paradoxa gene – the plants are a bit more susceptible to winter rot. OK – here’s the recipe for success with these fantastic, new hybrids…

If you’re a gardener:

- Plant ‘em early
- Plants ‘em high if you have poor drainage
- Don’t be afraid to tip the pot in the nursery and look for roots.

Your coneflowers and your wallet will thank you.

If you’re a grower:

- Cut off the first blooms of a new crop so they can make more crown and roots
- If you are going to deadhead the fall flowers, cut them all the way off. Don’t leave the old stems because they act like straws – drawing moisture down and into the crown every time they are watered or it rains.
- Make sure you keep all coneflowers dry in winter months

Your coneflowers, your budget and your suppliers will thank you.

You can be successful, as a grower and as a gardener, with all of these new, very coveted selections if you follow these simple rules. And when you hear a friend or customer say, “Those new coneflowers are not winter hardy”, please respond with, “Oh, contraire, but they are. Let me tell you what I’ve learned.”

I would greatly appreciate a little help spreading the word.

[Jeff Merritt]

The article by Angela Treadwell-Palmer was very informative and pretty much sums it up for Coneflowers.

It is hard to keep up with all the new varieties and influence the customer to buy them without having

the hands on experience of growing them yourself or having feedback from customers who have had success with a particular variety. Also most of the new varieties are pretty pricey from when they are plugs to the finished retail product. A lot of retail customers are kind of hesitant to buy a new fancy coneflower for $12 to $14 and not have good success with them. The old standards such as Magnus, Ruby Star, White Swan, Pixie Meadowbrite, etc. still seem to sell the most. Also when you tell the customer to trim off the flowers the first year on the fancier varieties they kind of look at you dumbfounded. I think a lot of these new varieties need to be field tested longer before being introduced on the market. Also Terra Nova - how many new varieties do they have to come out with - it is becoming mind boggling. How many Coneflower or Coralbells do we have to grow or stock?

[Andy Bittner]

Sorry for the rant but its been bothering me for a while and when I logged on and saw this thread...

Thanks for the article, I appreciate the point. Its not the easiest crop to finish, most natives with a taproot can be difficult (ie ascelpeis). I love coneflowers! I just dont like wasteing money on the cultivars with no vigor and therefore no hardiness in the landscape. The hype that surrounded the early intros left a bad taste when they ultimately failed.

I have grown just about all of the new coneflowers with a lot of sucess in the nursery, big beautiful plants with huge crowns and pots full of nice white roots, I even cut some to sell to a local florist for arrangments, but when the customer comes back with a pot full of dug up dead roots it ain't pretty.

Got to say I still love one of the scented intros from Terra Nova. Fragrant Angel has a hypnotic scent with pretty good vigor.

I was planning on just growing just PowWows for next year but I think Ill include some true natives!

 

 

[Michael Pawelek]

In my 40 year career as a grower I tried out a lot of the newer Echinacea offers and early on realized that the general potting mix I blended for many of the 150+ varieties of other plants I grew every year just was not correct for a plant that many times grows in extremely well drained soils. Here in Texas there are native Echinaceas that grow from the east Texas Pine Forest to the mountains in Big Bend National Park. Some at sea level to thousands of feet in altitude. The one thing in common in these different geographic zones are soils that are well drained to the point of almost holding no water at all. Many of the east Texas soils are predominantly sand where as the Texas Hill Country and further west can be totally limestone with almost no organic matter present. On the other hand many nursery container mixes are 75%-100% organic in nature chocked full of either peat moss, leaf mold, coir or bark. These hold a considerable amount of moisture and as the organic portion decomposes less and less air space. Creating a super well drained container mix worked the best for my operation when it came to many local native species even to the point of adding small gravel to the potting mix.